My first answer to this question is No, but it is a knee jerk reaction. It is important we return to Scripture to be sure. A gracious friend and faithful truth seeker pointed me toward an article called: 10 Claims in the Bible on the Deity of Christ by Tom DellAringa.
I appreciated that it was a genuine article and not a watered down sermon. It is important to examine each reference to the Bible and fully understand the author’s dissenting view. I also must mention my skepticism of the Christian church and their infatuation with the man they call Jesus Christ.
Skeptics and followers of other faiths that also deny his divinity and know of his Jewish roots call him Yahoshua ben Yosef. I haven’t learned enough Hebrew to understand this distinction, so I believe for this purpose I will just call him Jesus. I also do not presume to know which is correct, but wish to examine the Scriptures as I understand them.
1. John 8:56-59- Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
To understand this verse and what Christ was actually saying to the Pharisees, we must go back to the Old Testament where God revealed Himself to Moses in Exodus 3, in the burning bush. When Moses asked God what name he should report back to the Israelites to prove that God had sent him, God replied “I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.”
I AM is literally “I will be what I will be (or become).” And Moses understood that God’s people would recognize that name as representing God Himself. We can see this in the response of the Pharisees – they take up stones to immediately stone Christ to death for blasphemy, but of course Jesus escapes through there midst (right in the middle of them) for Christ said in John 10 “I lay down my life, that I might take it again.No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself.”
By equating the name “I AM” to Himself – before Abraham’s day – Christ was literally saying that he was one with the Father – that they were the same. If the Pharisees – the experts of that day in what such a thing would have meant – understood it that way, then there is no other alternative for us today.
I agree that one must return to Exodus to understand the meaning of I AM, but that is it! It seems to me DellAringa and the Pharisees literally meant Jesus saw Abraham with his own eyes. If you read the entire chapter Jesus reveals his identity in verse 28, and the Pharisees misunderstood him even then. The passage says, “I AM hath sent me to you.” God hath sent me to you.
Jesus says, “Before Abraham was I AM” Before Abraham was God. DellAringa continues in error with, “If the Pharisees – the experts of that day in what such a thing would have meant – understood it that way, then there is no other alternative for us today.” Excuse me? Just because they misunderstood Jesus, I’m supposed to purposely misunderstand him too? Huh? I don’t think so. My soul screams NO!
8:21-30 Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.” So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?” And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” Then they said to Him, “Who are You?” And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning. I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.” They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father. Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.” As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.
If Jesus is God then how did Stephen see him standing on the right? (Acts 7:55-56) Why did he claim to see the ‘Son of Man’ standing to the right of God, instead of claiming to see God?
2. John 10:30-33- “I and My Father are one.”Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
Here there is little explanation needed, for the Pharisees themselves provide it. Simply put: “for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” They understood this based on His comment “I am my Father are one.”
Little explination is needed to show they misunderstood him yet again! Ok I totally agree with that too. What was Jesus really saying though? It is found in the next verse:
John 10:34-38- Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
Isn’t this a direct reference to Genesis 1:26-27? Let us make man in Our Image. Jesus reveals his identity again and everyone ignores him! He confounds them only to escape again! He doesn’t claim to be God, nor does he compare himself to God, he only claims to be like him. Why? Because it is in his Word.
3.John 1:1-3- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John begins his gospel by proving that the Word was indeed God Himself. There is no need to delve into Greek theory or wonder about what is being said here, for it is crystal clear. In these three verses we find that the Word not only was at the beginning and with God, but the Word was God. Furthermore, he is the creator – “All things were made by him.” “The Word” is Jesus Christ in the gospel of John. This means that the Bible here claims that Jesus Christ pre-existed his physical birth. That he literally created the universe. We already have Christ in point #1 pre-existing Abraham, who had lived some 2000 years before Christ.
I cannot agree with point 3. Jesus, Christ, nor Jesus Christ are mentioned in the first three verses of this gospel. Any assumption of Jesus physically being the Word of God is on behalf of the author. In fact the first person mentioned after these verses is John the Baptist. It is interesting to note John is the gospel that focuses mainly on what Jesus did and not his message making it one of the most idolatrous of all the gospels.
Veneration and worship of a teacher who stressed that honor and glory belonged to God. ALONE! (John 8:54, Exodus 20:3-4) This would include his son!
4.Mark 14:61-64- But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses? Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.
For those who would tell you that Jesus never claimed to be Christ, this verse clearly shows that He did. Then he further states that he will sit on the right hand of power, and this time the high priest rends his clothes he is so angry. “What need we any further witnesses? Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.”
Please pay close attention to the question he is being asked. “Are you Christ, Son of the BLESSED?” Jesus only reaffirms what he has been saying all along. Yes! I am the Christ! Son of a man who tells you if you remain faithful and obedient to God’s commandments you become His! Where is the blasphemy? They believed because Jesus said he was a child of God, that he was equal with God, that he was God. Jesus never said that.
Are you children of the living God? Ask a kid what he wants to be when he grows up and he says a policeman, a fireman, a doctor, a lawyer, etc. Jesus teaches us that answer should be “like God!” Do I blaspheme by saying this? No, because if I remain faithful and obedient to His commandments, I become His child, and become akin to Him! DellAringa assumes, because Jesus says, “I am” that means Jesus believes he is God, but he’s only answering the question.
Genesis 21:1-2- Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!”And he said, “Here I am.” Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”
Does then Abraham believe he is God in this passage? DellAringa has fallen into the same trap as the Pharisee High Priest. We are Blessed that it hasn’t cost someone their life this time.
“I cannot agree with point 3. Jesus, Christ, nor Jesus Christ are mentioned in the first three verses of this gospel. Any assumption of Jesus physically being the Word of God is on behalf of the author. In fact the first person mentioned after these verses is John the Baptist. It is interesting to note John is the gospel that focuses mainly on what Jesus did and not his message making it one of the most idolatrous of all the gospels.”
Hi,
Please read this and reconsider. The “Word” is Jesus, not John the Baptist. It is explained a few verses later:
John 1:14-15 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”
I’ll comment on others if I can find some more time! Thanks for going through this.
Also look at Colossians 1:16 “For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.”
If He created everything (John 1, Colossians 1 and others) and God created everything (Genesis 1, Isaiah 43 and others), then Jesus = God.
Thanks Neil,
I would appreciate it if you would. A Muslim friend of mine commented on Facebook too, but I need a balance 😛
Concerning the chapter in John, I think I may have ran those points together without realizing it. I understand that John [evangelist] believes Jesus was the Word become flesh.
I should have expanded on the idea that John [baptist] like Jesus, preached of a living God, of remaining faithful and keeping the commandments, but he was not Christ. He [John] was not the light of the world, but the ‘light bearer’. John knew in the right of inheritance/succession Jesus was first because he descended from the House of David (Isaiah 9:7).
As for Colossians, after examining the events that lead up to the trial and execution of Jesus, it was clear the Pharisees clearly misunderstood him. Reading argument after countless argument, Jesus made them look like fools! He literally killed them with kindness. His esoteric view of God’s law made any disagreement with him futile.
It still doesn’t make him God. The miracles he performed were no different than the miracles endowed to the prophets. Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah etc. It’s the awesome power of God pass to any of His children to get His message known to the World.
Paul was a converted Pharisee and like all converts…some ideas are hard to give up, but that’s a different blog.
“it was clear the Pharisees clearly misunderstood him”
I agree that the Pharisees misunderstood his mission and nature, but that mean they misunderstood everything He said? They accused him of claiming to be God and He didn’t deny it.
Yes, let’s save Paul for later! I’m a big fan of his but it might be best to focus on one issue at a time.
I think we agree that John the Baptist was referring to Jesus as “the word” in the opening of John 1. If you go back to those verses, wouldn’t the phrase, “and the word was God” be a clear indication of his deity?
And wouldn’t John 1:3 then demonstrate that Jesus was the creator God? (“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.) Genesis 1, Isaiah 43 and others teach that God created everything, and the John passage and others teach that Jesus created everything.
Mizclark:
I see an interesting lot of statements here twisting and winding around…you are quoted as saying “Jesus, Christ, nor Jesus Christ are mentioned in the first three verses of this gospel. Any assumption of Jesus physically being the Word of God is on behalf of the author.” The author IS the one who is conveying that Jesus is the Word, there is no assumption on the author’s part, but rather a clear cut belief statement that Jesus Christ has always existed and is God. His coming to flesh is of course confirmed in verses 14-15. Any assumption contrary comes from the individual readers. I’m a little confused on your position right now, for you use the gospels to promote an Arian view of Christ, but when presented with a clear cut case of the Deity of Christ, you sort of shuffle it under the rug here. So what do you honestly believe John, the author of this gospel, is conveying?
Also in response to the post on Neil’s blog about Isaiah 9:
You haven’t made your position all that clear. You stated you feel the prophecy comes later in 10. In right interpretation it is not personal feelings that count, but rather what is being presented. In Isaiah when he says “us”, as in to us a child is born, he means Israel. So if you read this chapter you come up with a child being born who is of Jewish decent, who is the light of the gentiles, and is also called God Almighty…so who is this child? You never made this clear. Also, Isaiah 10 does not have the appearance of a Messianic prophecy…usually those are indicatd when Isaiah states “Him,” “He,” or “Servant.”
“The miracles he performed were no different than the miracles endowed to the prophets.”
They were different though, Jesus used his own authority where as the other prophet’s had to seek authority first.
“Where is the blasphemy?”
When Jesus states He sits at the right hand of God making himself equal to God.
Also you never gave me feedback on Philipians 2:5-7 “Jesus being the very nature God.”
When interpreting the scriptures properly one is left with really only two options of how to properly understand seemingly contradictory verses…Either one accepts they’re contradictory and does not want to research to find the answers; thus believing the Bible is a flawed old ancient religious book. Or one combines the two seemingly contradictory vereses into something that actually works. As you point out with the verses you quote, Jesus is seperate from the Father (as any Trinitarian believes) but it is clear there are other verses that make Jesus so much more then just a good Rabbi.
You’re right its not here! :-O. I apologize, because I have been speaking on this subject a lot lately and that piece may have been included in comments on another blog. If you bear with me I will take time today and post it here. I still haven’t really formed an opinion on what John is saying, because I am still reading it. I must reveal it has ALWAYS been my favorite gospel, because I know there is something hidden there…I just haven’t found it.
I do not take your comments lightly and feel this subject is not to be studied that way either. I have not posted a reply to your comments concerning Philippians because I need to read it.
This is something I agree with 100%.
The miracles in of themselves weren’t different. The prophets had to seek to use the authority, because they did not know they already had it. Jesus’ message was: those who loved the Father faithfully and obeyed his commandments were endowed with the same. Their only requirement was they believed. Why else would his disciples have been able to perform miracles without Jesus being there? The blasphemy is not with Jesus, he worshiped the Father. The blasphemy is with MAN, because they worship his SON.
The Trinity is an enigma. What does it really mean? Christians say, “The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” others say, “The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit.” A subject deserving its own blog. It is assumed John says, “Jesus was the Word,” but is that what he said? Or “Jesus was so faithful and obedient. He lived, breathed, and ate the Word, thereby becoming it. In this he became the FIRST, and God was pleased Israel had fulfilled the promise given in Isaiah 9.
Prophecy of Jesus
Philippians 2:1-11: In casting aside my opinions of Paul, it is easy to see he is telling you to imitate Jesus. Love God, be faithful, do what is expected of you without complaining. All of these things I agree with, but as with any author he is editorializing his own opinion in verse 6 when he says Jesus didn’t use his equality with God to his own advantage. Jesus didn’t use his equality with God because he has none. Jesus accepted the Christ, loved God with everything he was given, and loved his fellow man as he loved himself. Why is he special? He did it without complaint! PERIOD!
We complain at every turn, and worse yet now we feel we don’t have to follow the Law, because Paul says with Jesus it is unnecessary!(Gal 2)
I just heard a great sermon about Philippians 2:1-11 that went into detail about the original Greek words and how they unmistakenly claimed the deity of Christ.
I encourage you to consider how quickly you seem to dismiss whole chunks of the Bible that go against your point about Jesus’ deity. John 1 could not be more clear (Jesus is the word, the word is God, therefore Jesus is God), yet you seemed to dismiss that.
If you dismiss Paul, then wouldn’t you dismiss Peter as well, who claims Paul’s words are scriptural?
Wouldn’t you dismiss Acts, which tells the story of Paul’s conversion three times? And then the Book of Luke, since authored Acts?
And so on . . .
Just food for thought.
Hi Neil,
Dismiss is a strong word. I think critical is more accurate. I like thinking of Paul as one of those old college professors with a brilliant mind, who get so caught up in their teachings they have to use a textbook they’ve written. The fact the original Greek unmistakeably mentions the deism of Christ only furthers my point about the Greeks and Romans adopting Christianity to their pagan religions. Just as with the Egyptians and Babylonians the Israelites adopted some of the practices and culture of the Greeks and Romans. It was the only way to justify Jesus’ superior knowledge and abilities as they did with heroes like Heracles, Odysseus, Perseus, etc. Notice in Galatians chapter 2 Paul rebukes Peter for dissing the uncircumcised Gentiles, even Paul says they have given up their Jewish ways and assimilated the Greek culture (hence the lax circumcision requirements). We have to assume it was the same with religion. Look what happened to Solomon.
I don’t follow that. Paul wrote in the common language of the day, which was Greek. How does that have anything to do with Greek and Roman religions?
The question is whether Paul’s writings were inspired by the Holy Spirit, right?
I don’t see how that follows. If the Bible is the word of God then we don’t have to assume that at all. Solomon’s life certainly had lessons for us, but I don’t see the relevance here.
Re. dismiss vs. critical: Do you think Paul’s writings turned out the way God wanted them to?
I mean when people live in foriegn lands they tend to take on cultures and religious practices of a perfect example would be Christmas. It originally had nothing to do with Christ, but over the years has become synonymous. We can never be sure about these things, because they happened so long ago. Do I think the Scriptures that Paul contributed turned out the way God wanted them to? That’s sort of a hard question, but yes in the sense I believe he did the best he could. We will all have a different interpretation of what is written, hence why the new covenant is written on our hearts.
This was important, so we would be able to find each other regardless if we agree. Paul drives me crazy, but as with all my elders I am bound to listen. No one among us knows the law as he does and struggles with darkness as much. The more I read the more I understand why you are a fan, the old geezer kinda gets under your skin and you begin to relate to his frustration. You can’t help, stupid!
I worry for those who are not as diligent as we are, and are in search of a quick fix. Paul in the hands of a novice is frightening to say the least!
Mizclark:
I’m going to have to bow out of these discussions, the method you use to choose which scripture to believe and which ones not to is inconsistant. Thus making the discussion pointless because you can just throw out any verse that’s presented to you as fraud, Paul’s theology, or w/e. I recommend you look into a book called “How on Earth did Jesus become God” by Larry Hurtado.
I’m sorry you feel that way. I didn’t mean to give the impression I didn’t believe the scriptures. Paul is a man, just because I chose to check to make sure he’s telling the truth doesn’t mean I don’t believe. Do you sit in church and listen without checking the scriptures to make sure? In Matthew 24 Jesus tells me to refuse to be satisfied. The scriptures cannot be broken and they are the only way to find out if you are following a false teacher. They MURDERED Jesus, what else am I supposed to do?
You keep refering to the scriptures as your guide and Paul as just being a man… but last time checked the gospels where written by men, and theres no way of you proving that Jesus said what he said in those gospels. Remember the red letters do not come naturally in the Bible but are also placed by men. I take Paul’s word as being divinely inspired for many reasons including support of the other apostles to whom you say he had no support from. Also check your history Paul was not the creator of the Roman Catholic Chruch but was killed by the Romans. Peter has been long held as the first Pope by the Vaticant where as Paul is a mere saint. I’m curious what denomination you belong to.
Now I think you are beginning to understand my views. Paul is a great leader and an example we could all follow, but remember to learn it as he has so that we don’t become confused.
I do not believe the Roman Catholic Church is a creation of Paul or Peter. When their doctrines are examined they don’t really line up with our elders. They would, I think, be mortified to know this church has sanctioned idolatry and claim it was under the authority of the apostles.
I was raised in the Baptist church. My mother is Penecostal and my father was Protestant. My mother claims I have always asked these hard questions…at home and church. I have sense let go of denominations in my adult life.
I feel they have taken focus away from what Jesus asked me to do. I identify with the Netzarims. A group that could be considered a precursor to the Essenes. It has been said his parents were of this group.